Interviews from U.S. television network morning broadcast of The Today Show from Saudi Arabia, Monday, January 13, 2003

• Introduction
• Interview with Crown Prince Abdullah
• Interview with Prince Saud al-Faisal
• Interview with a Saudi Arabian Woman

KATIE COURIC: ...It is a nation of 22 million people, Saudi Arabia is one-fourth the size of the U.S. and lies at the crossroads of three continents, Europe, Asia and Africa and shares a long border with Iraq. This, of course, is a land full of ancient customs. It only became a country, surprisingly, in 1932. So, it is still relatively young. But today, Saudi Arabia is front and center, perhaps now more than ever. Questions are being asked. What role will it play in a possible war with Iraq? How has September 11th and terrorism effected U.S.-Saudi relations? How can this society move toward the future while still respecting the past? And, how do women feel about their role here? We're going to be examining that and many more issues, throughout the morning, especially in my exclusive interview with the ruler of the Kingdom, Crown Prince Abdullah...

...the fragile relationship between the United States and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. It's been a long, complicated, but for the most part solid, relationship for decades now. But given world events, it's being plagued by mutual feelings of suspicion and mistrust. Here's NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell.

MITCHELL: It is one of America's most important allies, a kingdom of mystery -- guardian of the Muslim world's most sacred sites. A nation carved out of the desert in the 1930s with the profits from black gold -- oil. Under these shifting sands, the world's largest oil reserve, first discovered by American oilmen. Every American president since has needed to keep the Saudi royal family close, to keep the oil pumping and prices under control.

FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE JAMES BAKER: It was a written policy of the United States of America that we would, if necessary, fight to protect secure access to the energy reserves of the Persian Gulf.

MITCHELL: When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990 the US did go to war to liberate Kuwait and protect Saudi Arabia from being the next domino to fall. But the large US military presence in the kingdom, including women, infuriated Islamic extremists, especially the Saudi-born Usama bin Laden. From one of the country's wealthiest and most prominent families, he turned on the regime; accusing it of letting the Americans violate sacred ground. To appease the fundamentalists, critics say, the royal family spent millions on radical Islamic schools in Saudi Arabia and nearby countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan, breeding a new generation of radicals and more hatred of the United States. September 11th, 2001, bin Laden orchestrates the attacks on New York and Washington. Fifteen of the 19 hijackers are Saudi nationals. US officials complained that the Saudis are not cooperating in the war on terror -- a charge they deny.

[FOREIGN POLICY ADVISOR TO CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH] ADEL AL-JUBEIR: Everything the US government asked for from Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia provided.

MITCHELL: But the Saudis have raised at least $250 million dollars for radical charities, including supporters of al-Qaeda. Even the wife of Prince Bandar, the long-time Saudi ambassador to Washington -- a favorite of the Bushes -- may have unwittingly donated money that ended up helping two of the hijackers. And only two months ago, the powerful Saudi interior minister suggested that the 9-11 attack was not the work of al-Qaeda but what he called Zionists -- his term for Jews.

AL-JUBEIR: After September 11th there was a lot of -- there were a lot questions raised in the US with regards to Saudi Arabia, as there were questions in Saudi Arabia regarding the US.

MITCHELL: Still there are large cultural gaps. Many Americans don't understand a country that still holds public beheadings and flogs women who don't dress appropriately -- where women aren't permitted to drive or even ride in the front seat.

BAKER: We're allied with a lot of countries around the world that don't share our, necessarily share our views, our principles and values totally and completely.

MITCHELL: Saudi dissidents say while the royal family lives lavishly, most Saudis suffer with no power to change the system.

ALI AL-AHMED [Saudi Institute]: The people's voice is mute. We don't have any sort of elections, any sort of human right activism, any sort of civil society.

MITCHELL: And now with war looming once again, another President Bush is wooing the Saudis just like his father.

PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: The Crown Prince and I had a very cordial meeting that confirmed the strong relationship between Saudi Arabia and the United States of America.

MITCHELL: So as long as America needs oil and air bases, the US will be courting the Saudi kings, a sometimes-troubled alliance, now more critical than ever.

COURIC: Crown Prince Abdullah is a low-profile leader in a high-profile country. Unofficially he's been ruling Saudi Arabia for the past eight years, ever since his brother King Fahd suffered a series of strokes. People call Prince Abdullah a visionary, and reform is a key priority at a time his country faces increasing internal challenges and an increasingly challenging relationship with the United States.

I met up with Crown Prince Abdullah at one of his official meetings, known here as a Majlis -- where Saudi citizens gather weekly to voice their opinions about the country. At Sunday's meeting Prince Abdullah called for unity, not division, saying that reason, patience, moderation and kind words will help bring people together.

For a de facto king he makes an effort to be in touch with all Saudis -- reaching out to the homeless, eating lunch at the mall. He is also passionate about horse racing. In his first American television interview ever, he admits that while the relationship between his country and the United States is turbulent right now, he insists it is still solid and unshakable.

Many people in Saudi Arabia currently have very negative feelings about the United States. Only 16 percent in a recent poll think positively about America. Why do you think that is?

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: The primary reason being the situation in Palestine and American policy towards the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and the events that are occurring there which have generated anger among people in the region. The second reason I believe there is criticism towards Saudi Arabia has to do with some American media and the unfair criticism or attacks against the kingdom, which have caused a lot of pain among Saudis.

COURIC: What, in your view, needs to be done vis-à-vis the Arab-Israeli situation to have public opinion in the Arab world toward the United States change?

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: America was founded on the basis of justice and equality, and this is what is required to bring this conflict to an end. What the Palestinian people are asking for is a just solution and an equitable solution.

COURIC: Do you feel as if US policy is too one-sided and too pro-Israel?

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: Clearly.

COURIC: Because 15 of the 19 hijackers on September 11th were from Saudi Arabia, some people in the United States feel this is a breeding ground for terrorists. What is your government, and what are you doing to ensure there aren't many more like those 15 individuals who are willing to take that kind of action against the United States?

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: I believe that no society is immune from deviants and extremists. This situation exists in every country, in every society and in every faith. These individuals do not represent their societies. They do not represent the prevailing thinking of a society.

COURIC: But what can you tell the American people that will convince them that this kind of activity, terrorism against the United States, or other countries for that matter, is not something that is being encouraged in Saudi Arabia but is in fact being dealt with very seriously?

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: To begin with, I would suggest that the American people study the holy Koran and the Islamic faith. Our Koran and our faith reject terrorism and the taking of innocent lives. Because we believe that this violates the basic principles of our faith as well as the principles of humanity and the preservation of life.

COURIC: Having said that, that still doesn't address the problem of religious fanatics in your country who may want to wage a jihad against the United States.

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: When we look at the Torah or the Bible or the Koran, we will find people of all faiths that interpret their scriptures in an extreme way, but this does not reflect the society.

COURIC: About the war with Iraq, a possible war with Iraq, do you believe, your highness that a peaceful solution is realistic given the fact that the buildup of US forces in this region continues?

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: I have a sense, and I must say I have a strange sense, that it may not come to war in spite of the momentum and movement and buildup in that direction. I can't explain it, but that's my sense. I believe that every problem has a solution. And I believe that if we look at understanding and communications as the basis for interacting with each other in life, we can find solutions to problems. I believe that force only begets death and destruction. It does not build anything. And that is why I hope that my sense that it will not come to war is correct.

COURIC: You've been described as a great visionary and reformer. How difficult is it to balance your desire for progress and respect for Islamic tradition and an increasingly fundamentalist society here in Saudi Arabia?

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH: Our Islamic faith is a forward-looking faith, a faith of learning and a faith of science. There should be no contradiction between religion on one hand and modernization and progress on the other hand if we interpret our faith properly.

INTERVIEW ENDS

COURIC: Incidentally, Prince Abdullah's Mideast peace plan was warmly embraced by more than 60 nations. It called for the withdrawal of Israel from the occupied territories, the creation of a Palestinian state, in exchange for security for Israel and normal relations between Israel and all Arab states. It was scuttled because of renewed violence in the Mideast last spring, but Saudi officials say it is still on the table.

COURIC: And once again, welcome back to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, everyone. At perhaps no other time in history has Saudi Arabia's place in the world been under greater scrutiny, especially in the United States. Earlier this morning, I had a chance to talk with Prince Saud Al-Faisal, the minister of foreign affairs. 

We began by talking about what Saudi Arabia has done to stop money from flowing from so-called charities to groups that may be supporting terrorism.

HRH PRINCE SAUD Al-FAISAL: We have laws now. Accountability is there. Everybody has to file statements to the government where the money is coming from, where it is going.

COURIC: It can't go outside of Saudi Arabia without permission from the government.

AL-FAISAL: Absolutely. Without permission and without knowledge that it is going to a correct place, doing good service and not abused in any way.

COURIC: Your highness, what are you doing to tone down anti-Western and inflammatory rhetoric that is preached by clerics in mosques in Saudi Arabia?

AL-FAISAL: You have heard the statements of the crown prince on many occasions and meeting the clerics, now the Ministry of Religious Affairs in here is asking everybody that they should not do this, they should stop. They should work for understanding, as is called for by our religion.

COURIC: In fact, they will be disciplined. How so?

AL-FAISAL: They will be disciplined. They will be prevented from speaking in mosques and there will be a check on what anybody can say in this regard. We need no inflammatory zealots who will add to the problems of the world of today.

COURIC: Saudi Arabia has been accused of not assisting US investigators enough in their search for information regarding these 15 hijackers and other potential terrorists.

AL-FAISAL: I refute it completely, and not only that, I refer you to the American officials who are working with us on doing that, who have refuted that themselves. And this is what--the only way we can get out of this quandary, of this accusation and counteraccusation is to establish a commission. My goodness, you establish a commission on everything. You establish a commission for the deterioration of the environment, for owls and certain forests...

COURIC: I get the idea.

AL-FAISAL: Why don't we establish a commission, a joint commission, to study the relationship between each other?

COURIC: Is that something you've suggested to US officials?

AL-FAISAL: Are we enemies or friends? I'm suggesting to you now.

COURIC: Let me read this line from a sixth grade history book.

AL-FAISAL: I hope the same thing happens on the other side, too.

COURIC: Let me read this line from a sixth grade history book used here in Saudi Arabia. Quote, "Arabs and Muslims will succeed, God willing, in beating the Jews and their allies." You hear that and think, 'Well, no wonder hate is being cultivated in Saudi Arabia.'

AL-FAISAL: Well, according...

COURIC: Why is that kind of rhetoric permitted in books read by schoolchildren?

AL-FAISAL: Going back to going back to scriptures, and I don't want to be confrontational. And there was a time when there was conflict, but we are now preventing these from coming into the school curriculum, and the Ministry of Education is working assiduously on that. But we hope also on the other side, we do the same thing.

COURIC: Let me talk quickly about reform. I know that all women in Saudi Arabia have been issued ID cards, which many believe is a precursor to giving them driver's licenses. There is also talk about phasing out gradually the Mutawae, the religious police. Even talk of possible democratic elections sometime in the future. How difficult will it be to institute some of the changes that I've just described?

AL-FAISAL: Well, one can never diminish the difficulties of bringing about reforms, but they are necessary reforms. We believe that they are necessary reforms and that they have to come. For women, you will probably meet many women or you have met many women, probably the driving license is the least of their worries. They want jobs. They want to be able to compete equally in the job market. They want to have the rights and that's--driving is a side issue -on that. If a woman is working and earning her income, driving is the least of her problems to get authorization for that in Saudi Arabia. We are moving. We are moving on every level, but we are moving with one constraint that whatever we do in terms of reforms will not break the social fabric in the country. I can assure you, knowing from personal experience in my home...

COURIC: You have three daughters?

AL-FAISAL: And a wife. The women are going to take the rights whether we like it or not, and that is for sure.

COURIC: Finally, the war. One Saudi official told me when it comes to war, your country will give the United States what it needs, not what it wants. And what it needs, being permission to fly over Saudi territory, command and control operation, search and rescue missions. What it wants, perhaps, and what you will not OK, offensive missions launched from Saudi soil, US ground troops. If there is evidence of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction and if the UN Security Council authorizes force, two significant ifs, admittedly, will you support military action against Iraq, even if public opinion in your country is against it?

AL-FAISAL: Well, look, what we are working for is the prevention of use of military force. Why? Because military force is going to create more problems than it makes for solutions. Now if the United Nations finds there is material breach and that military action is viable and feasible, we are asking, 'Give us a chance.'

COURIC: But how difficult will it achieve these results peacefully? It's not as if Saddam Hussein will say, 'Hey, guilty, see you later.'

AL-FAISAL: No, but there is--Iraq is not Saddam Hussein alone, and it is a mistake to think of Iraq as Saddam Hussein alone. Iraq is a country that's been there for at least 5,000 years. What you are--if you tell the Iraqis that war is coming, regardless of any conditions that apply, they will support Saddam Hussein. If you tell them, 'No, we want your established order to remain until we create the transition period that brings multila--faceted democratic institution--and look who's talking in this, multilateral democratic institutions in--into being,' where is his support if he wants to do?

COURIC: So you believe, if there is evidence of weapons of mass destruction, that the end of Saddam Hussein's regime can be worked out peacefully and will have the support of the Iraqi people?

AL-FAISAL: At least give us a chance, what would be lost in that? If, in the final analysis, if we don't succeed, those who are working for war can have their war as they please, but which is going to be a catastrophe for the region.

COURIC: Your highness, Prince Saud Al-Faisal, minister of foreign affairs here in Saudi Arabia. Thanks so much for your time. We appreciate it so much.

AL-FAISAL: Thank you so much...

COURIC: Welcome back to Riyadh, everyone. You know, Saudi Arabia is the most conservative country in the Arab world, with many customs and rituals Westerners find very hard to understand. For example, there are still public executions, beheadings, in major cities every week. There's a call to prayer five times a day. Alcohol consumption is against the law. And, of course, women here have very few rights. So clearly it is a difficult backdrop for social change, but many Saudis say right now they are re-examining themselves and their way of life.

Judging by the skyline, Riyadh could be any big city in the United States. A bustling metropolis -- the capital of Saudi Arabia. A futuristic setting facing the challenges of adapting to life in the modern world.

It's a study in contrasts, from the desert to the sea, from the old to the new, from Arabian traditions, to neon strip malls and exclusive stores. Saudi Arabia is the birthplace of Islam and every day there is evidence of a delicate balance between two worlds: Respect of religious traditions from the past, and a desire for progress. Saudi Arabia is still the only country in the world where women have to be fully covered in public, order their food at a separate line in McDonald's, and a woman can't walk around alone unless she's escorted by a male member of her family. Women are also not allowed to drive. And in a bold and risky move during the 1991 Gulf War, 47 challenged the law and took to the drivers seat in a rare protest.

Many women we spoke with said this was not suppression, but tradition, and had bigger issues to worry, such as economic opportunities. They are making strides, 60 percent now attend college, single sex, of course, and they make up 7 percent of the work force.

SAUDI ARABIAN WOMAN: I am a Journalist. I'm an investor in the stock market. And I am in front of the NBC cameras. My head is not down. I'm proud of myself.

COURIC: Medicine is one of the few fields women work side by side with men. These two female doctors just assisted in separating Siamese twins.

SAUDI ARABIAN WOMAN (DOCTOR): I work in the pediatric population. It's very nice. The parents are very appreciative. You deal both with the mothers and the fathers. And they look at you as a physician, not as a woman or a man.

COURIC: Saudi society is hardly equal, and in most cases it's distinctly separate. For example, this is Saks Fifth Avenue on the women's only floor of the Kingdom Mall here in Riyadh, where women can shop till they drop and they don't even have to wear their abaya. No men are allowed on this floor, in fact, my cameraman had to stay downstairs and that meant my producer Nicola Hewitt had to shoot the stand-up. Some Saudis say that slowly they're pushing the envelope of social change. There are economic reasons to do so, unemployment has sky rocketed and the standard of living has declined dramatically, and demographics might help fuel the fire of reform. More than 60 percent of the population is under 25. But even the most progressive Saudis say while change is afoot; they want to do it in their own time and on their own terms.

Incidentally, as we left the mall my producer Nicola Hewitt and I were harassed by the Mutawa. They followed us around. They yelled at us and told us to cover their hair following us all the way to the car.

Joining me--me now, is Nada Al-Feyz. She is one of the first female economic journalists here in Saudi Arabia.

Nada, it's so good to see. Thank you so much for talking with us this morning. We really appreciate it. We want to help people in the United States understand your customs and traditions. So can you tell me why Saudi women basically wear abayas out in public?

NADA AL-FEYZ [Journalist]: This is our religion that tells us to wear this black abaya. You can find us here wearing black abaya, in Afghanistan they are wearing a blue abaya. In the Arab countries they are wearing colored abaya. So this is our religion. And also the culture, our culture says that we must wear it as a black abaya. But we must be covered. If it's black or blue, it depends on the culture of the country.

COURIC: Some people say, some women I've spoken with since I've been here say, It's not suppression, it's tradition and we want to respect our tradition. At the same time, Nada, does it ever bother you that you have to wear it all the time?

AL-FEYZ: Not at all. No, I'm very happy with my abaya.

COURIC: You are? You don't feel like, I have to cover up. I can't express myself in my clothes?

AL-FEYZ: This is first of all, our religion. I can talk about fashion, maybe it is our style. You know, the Indians with the saris and what they are wearing. This is their style. My religion asks me to wear this and also I'm stylish like this. I don't want to look European or American. I have my own style. This is my style.

COURIC: And, in fact, in the privacy of your home you can wear whatever you please?

AL-FEYZ: Yes. I wear blue jeans in a women's private sector, or a women's gathering I can wear my blue jeans, my dress, anything under my abaya.

COURIC: I spoke with one young woman on Saturday night who said she likes wearing her abaya because she doesn't have to worry about what she's going to wear all the time.

Let me ask you about driving. I know that many Saudi women don't seem to be bothered by this, and yet it seems to be a true obstacle to economic opportunities. In other words, it restricts your freedom to go places, and if you can't go places, how can you earn a living or have a job?

AL-FEYZ: Let me make it clear for you. Driving, is not a big deal, as long as I can go to work, to school, to the mall to shop. The driver is driving for me, I can go to those places. It doesn't make a difference with me. I am driving or the driver. I can go everywhere. I can go to the mosque, to school, to college, to work.

COURIC: But what about poor women who can't afford a driver?

AL-FEYZ: She can ride a bus. The bus has low prices and she can ride them.

COURIC: How hard was it for you to become an economic journalist. You're one of the first in the country? I know when you work, you cannot work side by side with your male colleagues. How tough was it for you to get to your position?

AL-FEYZ: I built up myself since I was a student in economics in the high school. And I find it easy. You have, in your opinion the Saudi women are not seeing men. I meet them, as a doctor, you know, in the hospital we can see men. The country is not separate. There is no red tape, men here and women here.

COURIC: But in many cases they have the male the women only floor at the mall, and the Kingdom Mall.

AL-FEYZ: I went to Texas. In Houston there is a special hospital for women and a special high school for women also.

COURIC: So you don't see that much of a difference?

AL-FEYZ: No.

COURIC: What kind of changes would you like, if any, to see here in Saudi Arabia?

AL-FEYZ: Prince Naif ordered that each Saudi women can have her own ID. I think, in my opinion, this is a big change, that I have an ID.

COURIC: In fact, many people say it's the precursor to driver's licenses for women.

AL-FEYZ: Some of them say that, but until now there is nothing official about it.

COURIC: What other things? I know that Human Rights Watch, the first human rights organization is going to be entering this country next week.

AL-FEYZ: Mm-hmm.

COURIC: Do you see that as a positive development, to monitor human rights violations in Saudi Arabia?

AL-FEYZ: You know, human rights under to our religion, culture, style of life, we are happy. It is welcome. Any women rights, that is not part of our religion, culture, lifestyle, we don't need those human rights.

COURIC: A quick question, how do you feel about public executions? There are still beheadings, I understand, in--in major cities throughout Saudi Arabia on a weekly basis. Is that something you support, or something that makes you uncomfortable?

AL-FEYZ: I have no comment on that.

COURIC: No comment? Are you nervous about appearing on American television?

AL-FEYZ: No, CNN interviewed me before. This is okay with me.

COURIC: We had a male medical student here and you didn't feel comfortable appearing side by side. You said it would create problems for you.

AL-FEYZ: Yeah, I'm not to meet a man and sit with him private, so I ask you if kindly you can separate us because I respect my religion and my country.

COURIC: Very quickly, we're almost out of time, how do you feel about the United States? We're asking you questions about your country.

AL-FEYZ: Can I tell you something? It doesn't mean we are from a Third World country, that the United States is controlling us by remote control. Imagine that the kingdom one day, maybe we will be a First World country. We cannot control you. Would you feel happy about that? The United States is trying to let all the Arab countries follow the American example because the Arab countries are in the Third World. We have the freedom you know, to take our special line, you know?

COURIC: More or less. We can talk about it more after the commercial break. Nada Al-Feyz, thank you very much, again, for coming by this morning.

AL-FEYZ: Thank you.